The Comparisons for Michigan Lacrosse

As The New Kid On The Block, how Michigan lacrosse fares on the varsity level will remain a mystery until they hit the field this Spring. However, we aren’t without a few reference points. There are a couple types of schools that Michigan fits nicely into, either short-term or long-term, so let’s make with the comparisons.

The New Guys

Though there are a couple other programs on the way in Marquette and High Point, the Wolverines will actually beat them to the punch in terms of actually getting on the field. I’ll compare Michigan’s situation to each of the last few programs to attain Division 1 varsity status, including one not too far from Ann Arbor.

The University of Detroit Mercy Titans joined the D-1 ranks for the 2009 season, competing as an independent. They went 0-11 in their first season, and didn’t earn their first win until their eighth contest of year two, against Presbyterian. Matt Holtz, the Titans’ coach, came to Detroit from the MCLA program at Michigan State, and several players left Michigan State to help form his first team. Detroit’s team, by most measures, was basically a decent MCLA team, with some additional D-1 caliber players. For that reason, it might be the best comparison – though Michigan has been no “decent” MCLA team. U of D joined the Metro-Atlantic Athletic Conference for the 2010 season, and they finished 3-12 that year, and this past season they finished just a 6-10 record, but were regular-season co-champs, and were just one game away from playing in the NCAA Tournament.

Jacksonville University is a more recent addition to NCAA Division 1, completing their inaugural season in 2010. Like Detroit, they competed in their first season as an independent, . They finished the season 6-7, but that included a win over #18 Denver (about whom more in a bit). They obviously had much more success in their debut than did Detroit, partially due to an impressive recruiting class. They had down to go along with their ups, however, losing a game to Bellarmine (who Michigan’s club team actually beat in 2010). They joined the MAAC this season, and were about as good as UDM.

This past season saw the entry of Mercer to the Division-1 ranks. They were bad. Really bad. “Detroit beat them by 16”-level bad. Their lone victory came against D3 Carthage, and the closest they came to a D-1 win was a 6-goal loss to an awful VMI team.

So where does that leave Michigan? Encouragingly, probably better than any of these teams started in their first season, given all available evidence. Michigan has a bigger name, a lacrosse history (albeit at the club level) and much better institutional support than any of those have likely received.

The Football Powers

Several schools with BCS-level football have longstanding lacrosse history, so they aren’t apt comparisons to Michigan. Maryland, Syracuse, UVA, Duke, and North Carolina, you’re out. That leaves just a couple Big Ten schools – Ohio State and Penn State – and a small assortment of others. Rutgers, Notre Dame, Air Force, Army, and Navy all have lacrosse programs as well. The service academies aren’t a great comparison either (and really, nor is Rutgers, as an East Coast school that’s historically terrible at football, they aren’t the best Michigan doppelganger themselves).

That leaves three schools we’re pretty darn familiar with in Notre Dame, Ohio State, and Penn State. None have a great tradition of success in the game, though Penn State is looked to remedy that with a new coach, hiring Jeff Tambroni away from Cornell. He went 8-6 in his first year as a Nittany Lion, and is expected to bring PSU to new heights.

Ohio State has made the NCAA Tournament a couple times, but not advanced out of the first round. Their current coach, Nick Myers, was hired from within, though he was a varsity assistant, a completely different situation than a longtime club coach’s first foray at the varsity level. It will be interesting to see going forward whether the Buckeyes get a bit more institutional support – and the Showdown in the Shoe event hosted before the football spring game each of the past few years indicates they’re going in that direction.

The most optimistic comparison then is Notre Dame. The Fighting Irish made the 2010 NCAA Championship game before losing to Duke. They struck a serious blow for the Western schools in reaching the next plateau of lacrosse at the D-1 level. The Fighting Irish added the sport in 1981 (the most recent football power to do so), and languished as a partially-funded squad for several years. They are now fully-supported, have a beautiful venue, and made the NCAA quarterfinals again this year. They are making a claim to be in the second tier of lacrosse programs nationally.

Michigan has some similarities with the other football powers. They’re hiring an unknown quantity at coach (at least in relation to the D-1 level) like the Buckeyes, and have a similar academic profile to all three schools – though, with Notre Dame, they stand above the other two. Thankfully, the most successful program seems to be the most apt comparison. Michigan and Notre Dame are both excellent academic institutions (more important in the lacrosse community than it is in, say, football), they’re the two most recent additions, and Michigan seems to be making a full commitment to the sport, including with a dedicated facility.

Michigan 2012 is not going to be on a level with Notre Dame 2012 (or probably even Ohio State or Penn State 2012), but going forward, the Irish seem to be a pretty solid indicator of Michigan’s potential as a program.

The Non-Hotbed Guys

There is another group of schools that Michigan shares similarities with: teams from outside lacrosse hotbeds of the Northeast and down through Virginia and North Carolina. Again, the service academies aren’t great comparisons to Michigan, so Air Force won’t be a factor here.

As of 2011, the poster child for teams outside of traditional lacrosse areas (aside from Notre Dame, as covered above) is Denver. In the summer of 2009, the Pioneers wanted to take their program to the next level, so they hired legendary coach Bill Tierney away from Princeton, where he had won six NCAA Championships in nine years. In his first year at the helm, Tierney improved the team’s record from 7-8 to 12-5, won the ECAC Lacrosse Conference, and made the NCAA Tournament. By year 3, he’s in the Final Four and the Pioneers are looking to complete the West’s dream of a non-hotbed champion.

Michigan’s blueprint, at this point at least, doesn’t not appear to include “hiring one of the most proven coaches in the game” (though there are some bogus Dave Pietramala rumors floating around the nether regions of the lacrosse interwebs). That means that Denver’s path to success has been different than Michigan’s will be, at least to start.

Other schools not in hotbed areas not covered in previous sections include Robert Morris, Bellarmine, and Presbyterian College. All three are small private schools with fewer than 5,000 students, and aren’t great comparisons to Michigan. Hopefully, Presbyterian’s example (dropping varsity lacrosse within 5 years) is not one that will be repeated.

Best Guess?

With a program already in place (albeit a club program), there’s a capable group of guys who aren’t going to be stars at the D-1 level, and even some who turned down offers to play club ball at Michigan. Add in a successful first recruiting class, and you have a pretty good nucleus to start with. Michigan won’t be Detroit 2009 or Mercer 2011 bad this Spring.

That said, they won’t be world-beaters either. Nobody on Michigan’s club team has lost more than two games in their college careers, and they’ll definitely be taught a lesson in humility. For Michigan’s purposes, it is more important to get exposure for the program and lay a foundation for the future than run up a gaudy record in year 1.

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18 Responses to The Comparisons for Michigan Lacrosse

  1. Josh says:

    Humility really won’t matter in the first year since they can’t make the playoffs anyways being their first year in the NCAA.

    • Tim says:

      Yes they can. IL asked the NCAA about it a couple weeks ago, and was told first-year programs are eligible for postseason play if a conference is willing to make them. Full members off the bat.

  2. Hap says:

    Think you are getting a little ahead of yourself talking about UM in the playoffs. A bunch of club players, a club coach who never played NCAA lax and a team that scrimmaged that DI school out of KT that had 2 or 3 wins and UM got killed. Need a real coach and need at least 3 years of legit players to break .500.

    • Tim says:

      And Michigan pasted Bellarmine each of the previous two years. It’s not going to be the same roster for the Wolverines going forward, and it’s silly to read too much into what the club team has (and hasn’t) done.

  3. Hap says:

    Maybe UM can get a bunch of Michigan kids that have been riding the bench at some of the not so great DI programs to transfer. That will most likely have no impact. There are some freshman recruits coming from reputable high schools but no wear close to the top of the class.

    After UM announced it was going DI its seems they didn’t have their ducks in row by getting a legit DI coach. The program will flounder until they get a qualified coach and for the next several years the opposition will blow UM out of the water with scores of 21-1, 23 -3 or worst. There won’t be any let up. This isn’t club ball you have to play with the big boys and there is no mercy. Hope otherwise for the growth of the sport, but it looks a miss read by the AD on the coach. After they realize the mistake and 2 or 3 years are wasted then hopefully UM gets on the right track.

    • Tim says:

      You’re certainly entitled to your opinion on the coaching situation, but to say the AD “didn’t have their ducks in a row” is flat-out wrong. They knew exactly who they wanted to coach the team, and the only reason he wasn’t announced on the day of the press conference was due to laws about public institutions (they have to post open positions for at least a week before making an official hire).

      You can think what you want about JP, but the facts are that he’s a hell of a recruiter. He’s gotten kids who could have played at bigtime schools to come pay 3k a year to play on his club team. Maybe they weren’t going to start at Syracuse, Duke, etc., but these are kids who could have at least received some playing time anywhere. Is he the best X-and-O coach in the world? Maybe not (I have no idea, but it;s safe to assume no), but there’s much more to the game than that.

      From Day 1, Michigan will have excellent opportunity to offer to recruits, the “big-time college” experience that they can only get at a few other Division-1 programs (and only a handful that are nationally competitive), a damn good education (especially among those schools offering the full college experience), and competitive facilities, with even better ones on the way. That brings up another important point, which is plenty of monetary support.

      They aren’t going to be beating Duke or Syracuse in their first few years, but to think they’re going out and getting pasted like Mercer or Presbyterian did time and again this year is silly. Even without changing a damn thing, Michigan’s club squad from any of the past few years could have easily handled Mercer this season.

  4. Hap says:

    They going to be playing in the same league with Denver, Ohio, Loyola, Fairfield ect(Mercer is not in that conference). Prediction for 2012 – Denver 24 – UM 2; Ohio State 19 – UM 2; Loyola 19- UM 3; Fairfield 19 – UM 4, maybe the game against that KT team might be 15 -5 or Air Force probably same score but they are close to the worst teams in DI. UM will get blasted because no one will risk that chance of wanting to have a close game with a club team. This isn’t UM coming in for a fall ball game or preseason friendly where the opposition throws in the third and fourth strings after the first 5 minutes and everyone has a good laugh as the rookies get to play a club team. These coaches will have to recruit against UM and they are going to embarrass them.

    When a coach from the top teams in the Big East, ACC, IVY, Petro or Tierney coming calling all they have to say to a recruit is “Do you want to play at a program that is coached by a guy who never played or coached at the Div I level?” Your argument about facilities could be similar to Ohio State, but it benefited from a coach that was a 3 time All American from UNC and was on Team USA, who is now the coach at UNC. With his departure Ohio State has gone down a couple of notches. All I am saying is if you are going to spend the money on the program, get a pedigree coach. That is what Denver did with Tierney and look at the results he delivered or Petro bringing Hopkins back to the top. Again, maybe this unorthodox approach will work, but I bet Marquette will do better with their DI guy and they are in a tougher league with ND, SU and Nova. Wishing the best for UM Lax, just will hate to see those blow outs.

    • Tim says:

      Of course, time will tell, but I think you’re seriously underestimating how good Michigan is going to be this year. The administration wouldn’t have gone with an immediate promotion if they thought they were going to lose every game by double digits.

      Again, there’s no way they’re going to be Mercer-level bad this season (2-20 to Ohio State), and if your expectation is that they’ll lose to the Buckeyes by 17 goals, you’ll be pleasantly surprised by how they perform this season.

    • Josh says:

      I think you need to read my article I wrote months back on their program on Lacrosse Playground because, and you obviously don’t know much about John Paul, because he goes to a tremendous amount of effort to attend coaching seminars and utilize every bit of any opportunity of ensure his players are as good as they can be. It’s not like he has never played lacrosse, as he has played at a high level than most D1 coaches, not to mention most D1 coaches you email won’t email you back, they would rather you call them, BUT JP will take the time to do anything for anyone because he loves the SPORT and his TEAM that much. It is easy to pass judgement when you don’t actually see every action this man takes, nor when you see the actual work he does, or even the scrimmages they have already had against D1 teams, in which they did well, yet you seem to think they will get blown out terribly with incoming transfers, incoming freshman, and a couple D1 level talents already on the team. Go figure. Glad you have all the facts. I am actually going to be calling Coach Tambroni (Penn State) about this very topic here soon, stay tuned for that.

  5. AndyD says:

    It’s pretty short sighted to assume that a guy who was coaching club lacrosse won’t be able to coach at the D1 level. He’s the most successful club coach there’s been in quite a while (or ever?). Matt Holtz was a mediocre club coach at MSU. In three years he’s taken a team that has a fraction of the support Michigan will get to one win away from the NCAA tournament. UDM beat Siena in the regular season and lost to OSU by 1 this year. Holtz is doing a great job. I would bet that JP will hire an experienced D1 assistant coach as well. JP is VERY well connected at the D1 level. He’s not some outsider club guy (like Holtz was). He’s well known, liked and respected, and for good reason.

    That said, I don’t agree with Tim that they’ll be all that good this year. I think it will take a couple of years for them to get competitive. I don’t think they’ll get blown out by the likes of Bellarmine or Air Force necessarily, but I think every win in year one will be hard to come by. Good coaching or not, they will be going into the season with a roster full of players who for the most part have never been in a D1 game. I’m going to wait until year three before I start passing any real judgement on how good they can be. Even then their first real D1 recruiting class will be all freshmen in 2014. Give them a little time.

    • Tim says:

      Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s very, very unlikely that they’re any good. But Mercer-level bad? Not a chance.

    • Josh says:

      Andy, the Freshman are not the ONLY people coming in. Be sure to stay tuned to see who transfer. I can’t say anything more than that at this point. You can’t state a team will not do good when you don’t have information like we do, especially when D1 recruits are wanting to transfer ASAP to play for a top medical/engineering/etc school.

  6. AndyD says:

    Forgot to add this…

    Isn’t UM soccer coach Steve Burns the former UM club coach? They made the final four this year. I think that the women’s crew coach was the club coach too. I don’t know much about crew, but I assume it’s pretty hard to make the soccer final four.

    • Tim says:

      In Michigan Soccer’s 4th year as a varsity program, they made the third round (quarterfinals) of the NCAA Tournament. They also made it the following year, but did not return until this past season (11th).

      I would definitely say that soccer and lacrosse are very different situations, though, but it is (yet another) example that club coaches can have success at the varsity level.

  7. Hap says:

    If Michigan wants to be the next Detroit Mercy than the current coach will be fine. Aspiring to come close to beating Siena is also OK. If you want to be noticed like Denver playing Memorial weekend and getting there with a convincing win over Hopkins maybe a different selection at coach. Hopkins had a lot of talent in the 90s, but it took a coach to get them to the top 5 year in and year out. If you look at the top DI programs, which is what I assume Michigan wishes to aspire to such as SU, UNC, UMD, JHU, Cornell, UVA, Duke, ND, Princeton ect all these coaches either played DI or were assistants at DI programs or head coaches at other DI, DII or DIII programs before taking on their current positions. I am sorry club is no comparison to DI lacrosse not even close. I am sure the current coach is dedicated to his profession and the sport, but all coaches at this level have to be. From a competitive stand point the current class of recruits would be very competitive on DII and DIII rosters, but were not getting calls to play in the ACC, Ivy or Big East. Michigan is Michigan, which means they have a national reputation to help, but the current coach, current club players and incoming freshman means a tough few years for Michigan lacrosse. As I said previously scrimmages against some of the bottom DI programs playing against the third and fourth strings during fall ball and preseason and still losing by a large margin is not a good indication especially when having to play top 20 teams such as Denver and Loyola.

    • Tim says:

      Well, I guess you’re entitled to your opinion.

      • AndyD says:

        Which I guess he has made clear. Not a JP fan, and no understanding of the kind of program they’ve built at Michigan if he’s saying it isn’t even close to having D2 or D3 coaching experience. Time will tell, but I’d give it a few years. No matter who the coach is, it’s going to take awhile to recruit and develop D1 talent. Hap is right that this team doesn’t have the horses to play good D1 lacrosse yet. Yet. Although that’s not the current coaching staff’s fault of course. They have obviously been doing a great job getting the talent necessary to compete in the MCLA, which was their job up until now.

        What I really want to know is who is this Josh character who claims to have all of this inside information on transfers?

        • Tim says:

          Agreed, but nobody is saying that Michigan is going to compete with the best in D-1 right away. That’s a pretty easy strawman argument to tear down.

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